Here's a copy of a cyberbullying email discussion I was in a few years ago. I believe with what has been happening lately warrants the releasing of this group email discussion for public consumption.
A known deaf person personally invited me and numerous other well known deaf people in the community to contribute in a private email group discussion on cyberbullying. All names have been changed using initials only. Some initials do not reflect the same first letter of any names (e.g. first name or last name). Some initials do correspond with either a first or last name. Other initials I have purposedly mixed them up. Some style of writings were slightly modified to avoid detection. Signature lines were deleted to avoid identifying who said what. The purpose here is not about the names or who was doing the discussing. The purpose is to show what went on during those email discussions. This email copy represent about 1/3th of the discussions that went on. It's a long piece of email discussion that I cobbled together for your viewing information.
Again, this is not about names.
This is about a discussion on cyberbullying that went on in a group email discussion. I plan to release more of these email discussions at a later time. For what it was worth the discussion eventually broke down with accusations cropping up and misunderstandings. Some opted out early into the discussion. This is a long email copy with the opportunity to learn what was discussed by various deaf/hh individuals.
Enjoy.
Note: Two double line breaks signifies a new thread. A single double line break separates comments.
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On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 7:28 PM, “S”wrote:
Greetings all,
Lately the subject of cyber attacks and bullying has come up on Deafread and Aslrocks. As you know, its a subject I feel real strongly about and one that I have ZERO tolerance.
Was thinking, since many of you likewise feel the same way, the only way to end this cycle is by taking a stand to say "stop". Such bullying tactics have lead to many individuals being verbally attacked or trashed on blogs and vlogs. Employers have been contacted, families have been hurt, and self-esteem has been destroyed. Fear gives in, and paranoia sets, to the point some don't even blog or vlog anymore. Ridiculous to see oppressive actions on our own community. Its one thing to disagree with one another, its an entirely other thing to set out on a witchhunt. We could achieve far more working together in harmony, in unity, in the best interest of our future generations of Deaf babies and children.
Hence, this message is a simple request. Many of you are aware, and participated in an article I wrote about Zero Tolerance on Racism, which included A*dism.
I would like to do something similar, and get a quote from you about zero tolerance for cyber-bullying attacks, witchhunts, etc.
If you are real serious about seeing such attacks end, then I hope you are willing to show it by participating. By showing quotes from a diverse wide-variety of folks with different backgrounds, my goal is to show the Community that no matter who we are, no matter what we do, no matter that we may strongly disagree on issues, and/or even actually agree on an issue (here's hoping :) for that matter, our discourses, even heated discussions can be healthy, but cyberbullying is not. I think it behooves us to be responsible to ensure such does not continue to happen and such is why, we need to demonstrate this ourselves -- not separately, but together all on the same "page".
That's the gist of it. I look up to you all as leaders in your own right, the passion you bring to shed more light on various issues to help educate each other. This unified effort is to combat one thing, put an end to cyberbullying.
I hope you agree to send me your thoughts by way of a quote. If you think someone else should be added to join this effort, by all means, include them. The more who do join, the less the divide is amongst us.
I would like to post all of our quotes in one article, perhaps as a guest blogger on one of your sites. Would be neat if someone could also asl the piece once its done. The beauty of doing this is to ensure everyone understands one thing we can all agree on: Zero tolerance for cyber attacks and bullying. Such message can do well to actually strengthen our Deaf Community's ties. Who knows? We don't know until we try.
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“L” wrote, 10/06/10
There's actually a LOT of history to this effort already. You probably know most of it, but for those who don't, I'd start with: Deaf-Hope The Pact (link).
J, do you have more stories about the already-checkered history of this effort? I remember that X was involved, as was R.
I'm not even sure what ZERO tolerance means, after the fact...
- L.
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“P” wrote, 10/06/10:
Sounds like a good plan. Article for which reading literature q so I'd know who the audience will be.
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“B” wrote, 10/06/10:
My question is simply this: when does it end? I mean, we've come to a full circle in little more than a year. People will do what they want to do -- no amount of leaders can come together and change that.
It is kind of funny how we are asking them to learn something from this. I think we should ask this of ourselves: what are we learning from this experience??
I think if we keep responding to this, it will only fuel the fire.
As an individual among those who are being attacked (cyberbullied, if you may), I think it is best to let it go.
Someone has to or the cycle will never end.
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J wrote, 10/06/10:
B,
Good food for thought.
Which strategy do we pay the higher price? Which strategy do we risk more?
We know for a fact that in recent weeks, gay youth suicides are on the rise because of cyber-bullying. There is now a call to action within the LGBT community.
Do we remain silent with hopes of not adding fuel to the fire?
Or do we risk seeing Deaf people commit suicide because of hatred/ridicule they experience online?
J.
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S wrote, 10/06/10:
Thank you P! Audience are ppl who read blogs and vlogs. Could be in writing, could be as a video. Whole point is to show a variety of us. L, actually, it started long before the Deafhope pact.
J, and other Deaf womyn and myself posted abt putting an end to cyberbullying on Deaf-CommUNITY blogsite abt 4 or 5yrs ago. Zero tolerance meaning we all take a stand together to state we as individuals do not accept cyber-attacks and bullying. Real simple actually, and in our own words, short n sweet.
S.
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“S” wrote, 10/06/10:
Excellent point J!
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“J” wrote, 7 Oct 2010:
B,
Good food for thought.
Which strategy do we pay the higher price? Which strategy do we risk more?
We know for a fact that in recent weeks, gay youth suicides are on the rise because of cyber-bullying. There is now a call to action within the LGBT community.
Do we remain silent with hopes of not adding fuel to the fire?
Or do we risk seeing Deaf people commit suicide because of hatred/ridicule they experience online?
-J
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“B” wrote, 6 Oct 2010:
P,
My question is simply this: when does it end? I mean, we've come to a full circle in little more than a year. People will do what they want to do -- no amount of leaders can come together and change that.
It is kind of funny how we are asking them to learn something from this. I think we should ask this of ourselves: what are we learning from this experience??
I think if we keep responding to this, it will only fuel the fire.
As an individual among those who are being attacked (cyberbullied, if you may), I think it is best to let it go.
Someone has to or the cycle will never end.
============================================
“P” wrote, Oct 6, 2010:
Sounds like a good plan. Article for which reading literature q so I'd know who the audience will be.
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“L” wrote to “S“, 10/06/10”
Actually, I'm feeling more in line with what B has been saying...
This is structural. It's bigger than us taking a stand. It's a difference between how we each see the force of our own actions against others versus the force of others' actions against us.
It seems related to the whole thing of oppressors not being able to see that they are oppressing, and the oppressed seeing every twitch, with us each having way too much of both oppressor and oppressed inside. Both blinding and blinded...
What I'm seeing out there is, "Yeah? Well, your guy did THIS!" "Oh yeah? Well your other guy did something worse to us!" "Oh yeah?..."
Breaking the cycle means somebody has to be ABLE to say stop and actually HAVE it stop.
At this point, I'm not very hopeful...
- L
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“S” wrote to “L” 10/06/10
In isolation perhaps diff ppl have said stop. But all of us together in one place taking a stand? Nope.
This would be one helluva strong message to our Community. Every effort counts in my opinion. Won't know til we try, eh?
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“L” wrote on 6 Oct 2010 21:12:05 -0700
Actually, I'm feeling more in line with what B has been saying...
This is structural. It's bigger than us taking a stand. It's a difference between how we each see the force of our own actions against others versus the force of others' actions against us.
It seems related to the whole thing of oppressors not being able to see that they are oppressing, and the oppressed seeing every twitch, with us each having way too much of both oppressor and oppressed inside. Both blinding and blinded...
What I'm seeing out there is, "Yeah? Well, your guy did THIS!" "Oh yeah? Well your other guy did something worse to us!" "Oh yeah?..."
Breaking the cycle means somebody has to be ABLE to say stop and actually HAVE it stop.
At this point, I'm not very hopeful...
- L
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“B” wrote to “S” on 10/06/10”
Then, this is your fight.
All I ask from you is to respect my decision to let this go.
Thank you and good luck.
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“S” wrote on Oct 6, 2010:
In isolation perhaps diff ppl have said stop. But all of us together in one place taking a stand? Nope.
This would be one helluva strong message to our Community. Every effort counts in my opinion. Won't know til we try, eh?
=================================
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“L” wrote to “B” and group, 10/06/10”
“S”
It TAKES all of us to agree, but there IS no "all of us" to agree.
There is a really fundamental dynamic going on here that we're trying to sort of wish away.
B, can you explain it any better?
- L
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“L” wrote on 6 Oct 2010
Actually, I'm feeling more in line with what B has been saying...
This is structural. It's bigger than us taking a stand. It's a difference between how we each see the force of our own actions against others versus the force of others' actions against us.
It seems related to the whole thing of oppressors not being able to see that they are oppressing, and the oppressed seeing every twitch, with us each having way too much of both oppressor and oppressed inside. Both blinding and blinded...
What I'm seeing out there is, "Yeah? Well, your guy did THIS!" "Oh yeah? Well your other guy did something worse to us!" "Oh yeah?..."
Breaking the cycle means somebody has to be ABLE to say stop and actually HAVE it stop.
At this point, I'm not very hopeful...
- L
=======================
“S” wrote on Oct 6, 2010
Excellent point J!
=================
“J” wrote to “B” on im Brune" 7 Oct 2010:
B,
Good food for thought.
Which strategy do we pay the higher price? Which strategy do we risk more?
We know for a fact that in recent weeks, gay youth suicides are on the rise because of cyber-bullying. There is now a call to action within the LGBT community.
Do we remain silent with hopes of not adding fuel to the fire?
Or do we risk seeing Deaf people commit suicide because of hatred/ridicule they experience online?
J
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===================================
“J3” wrote to group on 10/06/10
Thanks S for including us. I would like to take some time to read this and all responses. This is not easy one after what we have gone through. Who wants to go through this again? It may be easier just to stay away from cyberworld. But heck no, you are right, we can do better than this.
So which is which... ummm...
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“P” wrote to group on 10/07/10:
Greetings S et al:
I want to thank you for initiating this collective response. Internet defamation, attacks, harassment via promoting falsehoods and inciting others to attack folks via their workplace, affiliations, and government agencies unjustly is definitely not cool when do you need a quote by?
Also - an ASL and/or international version is very important so if any way i can assist - holler. I understand the temptation to let it drop, to be a turtle. This does not make things go away - it just smolders or emboldens. Too many good voices have gone silent - too many good souls have been hurt. MLK Jr said A man dies when he does not take a stand for that which is just, right and good.
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“J4” wrote to “J” and “P” 10/07/10:
J- I agree with you. S, thank you for starting this important dialogue again
We have nothing to lose by taking a stand together. DeafHope did have a public petition created by a Deaf lawyer to stop Cyberbully together as a community during 2008 at our Tea Party. X was the first to sign it along with Y. Both S and I signed it as well. We did experience backlash for starting the petition but it created a much needed dialogue. It was a proactive statement by us as a community. It was worth it.
Now I think it is time for us to step it up with our personal statements before we lose a Deaf person to suicide. Sure we will experience backlash but we are all in it together to support one another. Prevention instead of reaction goes a long way.
-”J4”
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“B” wrote to group on 10/07/10:
S and everyone else,
Since my last email asking that my wish to let it go to be respected, I got three emails disagreeing with me, but with serious implications. First, I do not appreciate the emails by J2 and J, I felt they were truly disrespectful to my decision by implying that I may have little or no regard for other Deaf people's lives. It is very insulting.
Consider this perspective: I am respecting the lives of other individuals by not thrusting my opinions of their actions uninvited. It begs the question as to why exactly anyone would want to be travel agents for guilt trips on those who have no desire for these travel packages?
By refusing to respect my decision to let it go rather than to fight it with implications that I contribute to the suicides within our community can and should be construed as an early form of cyberbullying.
As for P, once again I felt disrespected. Rather than agreeing to disagree, my position is now considered "turtle" (which I assume is a thinly veiled analogy to cowardice) and throwing in a quote, by Dr. King no less, saying I'm less of a man than those who wish to fight this? Another example of cyberbullying in its early form.
Sometimes it takes a bigger person to take the brunt of it and let it go than to look for retaliation and being self-righteous.
If you feel it is necessary to bash my decision to let it go, then, please remove my name from this email list.
Once more, thank you and good luck!
-B
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“S” wrote to group on 10/07/10
I would much prefer to see this request done in each site...DR, DVTV, and ASLrocks before final quotes are posted on a blog and done in a video format with ASL and captions. I would feel better knowing that this is an effort to reach out to all and that no one is excluded. Perhaps do request via other deaf forums as well.
Also a message to start fresh, meaning - attempts to rehash is not productive. However, there will be some who might demand apology before being able to start fresh. So we do need to keep that in mind....
I do see why B thinks it might not work, because there will be ppl who feel that they have not reached some sort of closure....
Just sharing my perception...
-S
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“S” wrote to group on 10/07/10
Also....i am of the opinion that with these request we probably should refrain from using any key words that have cause division.
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“M” wrote to group on 10/07/10:
B,
Your mentioning "implications" of cyberbullying raises the fundamental questions I'm having about this call to action and reflections.
I believe this call by S although noble is too superficial for what is truly needing in this community both in and out of Deaf v/ blogosphere.
What is needing I personally believe as someone who's deeply entrenched in Deaf Cultural and ASL Studies dealing for so many years with all kinds of people both Deaf and hearing is recognizing and respecting the Deaf-centered definitions, social rules, historical ways, and positively potential ways of dealing with crisis. They exist and do work but have been badly battered in the "open" via DeafRead, and yes other "open" Deaf discussion arenas.
Can we begin to discuss cultural as well as personal interpretations of what consists of an insult? What is considered impolite? What is considered insignificant to some but a great insult to one or few? What is considered respect to us or is the same thing considered
hypocrisy to others?
Is pointing out untruths/lies a necessary "insult" or embarrassement that must be avoided? Does it have to do with confidence that comes with a healthy cultural connections with people around us or does it has to do with belittling others or even another culture/language?
Etc etc.
I need to stop now but I know this could become something good. However just quoting and shouting out "stop cyberbullying" won't work. Cuz we seem to have different ideas and ways to deal with it an we haven't even have a collective agreement to cherish and respect our Deafhood, history, Deaf-centered work and fight against a*dism. Etc etc.
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“B” wrote on Oct 7, 2010:
S and everyone else,
Since my last email asking that my wish to let it go to be respected, I got three emails disagreeing with me, but with serious implications. First, I do not appreciate the emails by J2 and J, I felt they were truly disrespectful to my decision by implying that I may have little or no regard for other Deaf people's lives.
It is very insulting.
Consider this perspective: I am respecting the lives of other individuals by not thrusting my opinions of their actions uninvited. It begs the question as to why exactly anyone would want to be travel agents for guilt trips on those who have no desire for these
travel packages?
By refusing to respect my decision to let it go rather than to fight it with implications that I contribute to the suicides within our community can and should be construed as an early form of cyberbullying.
As for P’s email, once again I felt disrespected. Rather than agreeing to disagree, my position is now considered "turtle" (which I assume is a thinly veiled analogy to cowardice) and throwing in a quote, by Dr. King no less, saying I'm less of a man than those who wish to fight this? Another example of cyberbullying in its early form.
Sometimes it takes a bigger person to take the brunt of it and let it go than to look for retaliation and being self-righteous.
If you feel it is necessary to bash my decision to let it go, then, please remove my name from this email list.
Once more, thank you and good luck!
-B
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M2 wrote to “S” on 10/07/10:
As a reader of mostly bloggers with an occasional trip to vlogging sites that were references in the blogs, I have my thoughts that are really irrevelant to this discussion because I do not have a clue as to what happened in 2008. I was not there.
So, I do not know if what I saw constitute "cyberbulling." I think people do it to themselves. I read cyberbulling blogs and do not respond because it is so off base and borders on ludicrous. I can choose to respond and engage in battling words, or I can choose to ignore and be at peace with my decision not to respond. That's where I can understand B's thoughts.
I think we all have to assume responsibility for responding and for engaging in potentially cyberbulling activities when we choose to.
I also think we all ought to be more ready to explain our points of view that could be confusing to others. If I write words that I eventually realize were hurtful, I would apologize quickly.
I don't think our problem is cyberbulling per se, I think the problem is that bloggers/vloggers are not able to look at themselves and acknowledge whether they have had been cyberbullying or wrote harsh words or were confusing readers or what have you.
That happens on both ends of the spectrum. There's no respect for different points of view, and there's no respect for experiences that are so different from the bloggers or vloggers. Does that constitute cyberbullying? I don't know.
It could be ignorance and a hint of arrogance....they think they know better what we need to do.
I think it is a world that invites both awe and repulsion. What do we do about that? I don't know the answer either..
The bloggers and vloggers seem to have ALL of the answers; honestly, I marvel at their knowing everything in life. I wish I knew as much as they do.
M2
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“S” wrote on Oct 7, 2010:
I would much prefer to see this request done in each site...DR, DVTV, and ASLrocks before final quotes are posted on a blog and done in a video format with ASL and captions. I would feel better knowing that this is an effort to reach out to all and that no one is excluded. Perhaps do request via other deaf forums as well.
Also a message to start fresh, meaning - attempts to rehash is not productive. However, there will be some who might demand apology before being able to start fresh. So we do need to keep that in mind....
I do see why B thinks it might not work, because there will be ppl who feel that they have not reached some sort of closure....
Just sharing my perception...
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“L” respond to “S” and group on 10/07/10:
Do you think quotes will stop S2? If S2 continues, what are we supposed to do? It only takes one backsliding cyberbully for the whole online community to be thrust back into the same old dynamic!
Can ANY of you get S2 to stop?
I felt that the most recent exposure of what S2's capable of doing was informative to a couple of those who HAD felt that S2 was the "good guy" here, and now realize that he's a BIG part of the problem and needs no longer to have this behavior supported...
J5 has realized that he had crossed the line by calling people names, and has taken steps so that he does not react publicly to taunting such as that S2 did AGAIN yesterday, but that will not be enough going forward if folks like S2 are given a free pass by their friends.
Part of the problem is, as B noted, that cyberbullying is easier to see done TO you than it is to see when YOU are starting to cross over the line, so there needs to be feedback from trusted friends in the backchannel and the ability to actually take HEED of this feedback whenever one of us has crossed the line.
But that takes the "society" part of the "open society". An "open society" that overemphasizes the "open" at the expense of "society" becomes exactly the sort of "Lord of the Flies" situation we have right now. CAN S2's friends tell him when he's crossed the line, and have S2 reign himself in?
- L
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“X” wrote to group on 10/07/10
The idealist in me
I have always been against cyberbullying and never have condoned or encouraged it. It pains me greatly to see when others respond in a destructive and mean manner. Yes, I would love to see a world where people always treat each other with respect and do not engage in destructive behavior towards others. It would be great if this coordinated response caused many people to see the light and modify their behavior patterns.
The realist in me
Unfortunately, bad behavior always been seen on Internet since the early days. I'm not trying to make an excuse here: it's a simple fact that it's seen everywhere on the Internet across the entire spectrum of users. There are many reasons for this which I won't go into here. It's sufficient to say that people behave very differently on the Internet than in real life. With Internet easier than ever for anyone to access, there are more people present who are not well versed in how to handle negative messages/events.
Even if everyone here today agrees to go ahead with a coordinated response against cyberbullying and other destructive behavior on the Internet, we'll only see a short term effect before it disintegrates back to the old ways. Even if everyone change their behavior tomorrow, it will be inevitable that more people will drawn in and these new people are not attuned to the agreed upon changes. The cycle will repeat itself. In this case, we aren't trying to manage a small group of people, but dealing with a larger population, who don't always follow the same rules, don't know each other personally, don't always get along, respond in many different ways and have their own prejudices and agendas.
The major problems that I have noticed: Not everyone sees cyberbullying in the same light and many times it's a matter of perspective. I've seen too many cases where people who have proclaimed they are against cyberbullying but selectively scold cyberbullies while ignoring/permitting others on their side who engage in the very same behavior.
I think a better approach would be not to aim to eradicate cyberbullying behavior, but to develop effective techniques to deal with these types of behavior on the Internet. Cyberbullying will always exist on the Internet but there are steps to minimize it.
I've tried to model this myself over the years, when I've been attacked numerous times:
1. Always respond in a polite manner, without resorting to degrading comments.
2. Know how to choose the right battles to fight and which ones to avoid.
3. Know when it's best not to respond (most of time, the aim of cyberbullying is to trigger a reaction and while it's very difficult for the person on the receiving end, sometimes the best thing to do is to ignore and not to respond at all.)
Accept the fact that everyone has had different kind of upbringing, were exposed to different things and learned to handle things in different ways. Some of these things they learned or were exposed to may have been positive or were negative. Human nature varies greatly among people. Lastly, it's virtually impossible to change other people's behavior patterns, if they are not open to it.
If there is one thing that I don't like, it's fighting a losing battle. I would prefer to devote my time and energy towards an approach that acknowledges real world factors and will pay off in the end. I may be a bit too pragmatic for my own good but if I see something that will be effective for the long term, I'm all for it.
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B wrote on 10/07/10
Be prepared for an heart attack everyone...
I actually agree with M here.
Well said.
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M wrote on Oct 7, 2010:
B,
Your mentioning "implications" of cyberbullying raises the fundamental
questions I'm having about this call to action and reflections.
I believe this call by S although noble is too superficial for what
is truly needing in this community both in and out of Deaf v/
blogosphere.
What is needing I personally believe as someone who's deeply
entrenched in Deaf Cultural and ASL Studies dealing for so many years
with all kinds of people both Deaf and hearing is recognizing and
respecting the Deaf-centered definitions, social rules, historical
ways, and positively potential ways of dealing with crisis. They exist
and do work but have been badly battered in the "open" via DeafRead,
and yes other "open" Deaf discussion arenas.
Can we begin to discuss cultural as well as personal interpretations
of what consists of an insult? What is considered impolite? What is
considered insignificant to some but a great insult to one or few?
What is considered respect to us or is the same thing considered
hypocrisy to others?
Is pointing out untruths/lies a necessary "insult" or embarrassement
that must be avoided? Does it have to do with confidence that comes
with a healthy cultural connections with people around us or does it
has to do with belittling others or even another culture/language?
Etc etc.
I need to stop now but I know this could become something good.
However just quoting and shouting out "stop cyberbullying" won't work.
Cuz we seem to have different ideas and ways to deal with it an we
haven't even have a collective agreement to cherish and respect our
Deafhood, history, Deaf-centered work and fight against a*dism. Etc etc.
entrenched in Deaf Cultural and ASL Studies dealing for so many years with all kinds of people both Deaf and hearing is recognizing and respecting the Deaf-centered definitions, social rules, historical ways, and positively potential ways of dealing with crisis. They exist and do work but have been badly battered in the "open" via DeafRead, and yes other "open" Deaf discussion arenas.
========================================
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J4 wrote to B on 10/07/10:
Hi B. J and I were throwing in our thoughts. I was just having a dialogue. Can u show what I said that was disrespectful to you? This well help me see what I said (unintentionally) to offend you.
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J6 wrote to group on 10/07/10:
I pledge that I will start being diplomatic and start having reasonable dialogue with everyone including K, S, etc. We all need to stop spinning and work towards appropriated solution to the issues.
But will S2 go along with that? Or is his fixation about M, D, B2, DBC, Deafhood is too deep to change for the better?
B, I apologize for my insensitive attitude that I demonstrated to you on your blog two years ago and hope you will forgive me and whenever we meet anywhere in the country, I would like to shake hands to show my secure desire to be friends with you.
J6
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“S” wrote to J6, B, P, K and to group on 10/07/10:
Thank you all for joining this important dialogue. Everyone’s input is respected, valued and appreciated. B, if by saying you don’t want to participate, then I can certainly remove you from this list. I was hoping that although you wish to let it go, you would want to be a part of the discussion. If not, just let me know, thank you.
The points J, M, and K have made are valid. There will always be a “R” or a “S2”. It’s what we choose to do with such comments or cyber-attacks/bullying that is important. From my view, I see a pattern where this issue surfaces almost annually. The educating never stops. Like racism, it rears its ugly head from time to time. Take for example when Obama was elected President, folks thought racism was finally going to end. We know from media publications, racist remarks by the infamous Tea Party about Obama, that this is not true. However, what we do see growing, is a stronger force of people united taking a stand each time it comes up. That is what this is about. Each time it comes up, we grow in numbers to take a stronger stand against cyber attacks and bullying. This doesn’t just mean what happens on the blogs or vlogs, and no matter what culture you belong to, it’s clear bullying attacks when behind scenes where the bullying happens with people sending email threats, calling employers to “squeal” on a person, many of you have experienced this yourselves. This is not acceptable.
P, I appreciate your offer to help. One idea I was toying with, but I don’t have the means to put it together, was to have this be an “infomercial” of the different folks here either defining what it means, or signing stop, or a written quote flashed on the screen – to make it all under 4 mins of course. Basically to make it so that it is “not cool” to attack or bully, so that it becomes a popular thing way to think. That’s what commercials do, shape the way the public should think about an issue or an item. Hope this makes sense. “Next year” we may have a different idea when it comes up again. Like I said, educating folks is an on-going process, it never ends, nor should we ignore it either. I think what I have seen is different folks speaking up on blogs and vlogs. Which is a good thing and needs to continue. But all of us from different backgrounds, together sharing and supporting one message, no.
Thanks to those of you who are considering working on this collectively. May the dialogue continue.....
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“S3” wrote on 10/07/10:
I like the idea of infomercials. keep things simple....people remember simple messages.
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P wrote on 10/07/10
Hi all
Ah my heart is still ticking B - no heart attack. Just an open heart and marveling at this dialogue. Thank you all. I do want to take a minute to apologize to you B if my quoting MLK made you feel I was targeting you. My intent was very far removed from that. This was my intent and desire:
MLK saying... A man dies when he does not stand for that which is right just and good. "Man" was the dominant language of the time. What he meant was a HUMAN - we as a PEOPLE - when we look the other way we cause more harm than good. It is not a question of manhood - or cowardice as MLK framed it
It is a question of doing right and a plea for our souls so there be no
death of the spirit. Too many good folks have been silent. I fully respect what ever choice you choose B. I am speaking to us as a commUNITY and I understand that folks are at different places and stages and have different needs at this time. I’m sorry you felt I was targeting you.
Feel free to disagree with the position without accusing me of something I did not do. I just stated my values and principles - I do accept that many folks hold different values and truths and opinions.
Please know that if I wanna say something directly to you - I will totally honor your spirit and say it directly. I wont play games - there are no veils coming from these quarters.
re: turtle - I was responding more to J3's comment: " It may be easier
just to stay away from cyberworld." But then he quickly followed it with: "But heck no, you are right, we can do better than this."
My purpose of mentioning the turtle - is because it is a mighty temptation for me too.
M wrote:
“Can we begin to discuss cultural as well as personal interpretations of what consists of an insult? What is considered impolite? What is considered insignificant to some but a great insult to one or few? What is considered respect to us or is the same thing considered hypocrisy to others?
Is pointing out untruths/lies a necessary "insult" or embarrassement that must be avoided? Does it have to do with confidence that comes with a healthy cultural connections with people around us or does it has to do with belittling others or even another culture/language?
These are very important questions and maybe the first step in this dialogue is to have folks within this listing share what they see to be the answers to these questions. This may lay the good groundwork for something much better to come forth.
========================================
========================================
J2 wrote on 10/07/10
At the risk of sounding too brash:
I would like to point out two things:
1) I haven't seen anyone who thinks or has said that cyberbullying is OK or is a cool thing to do. Everyone is against it. The problem is their own perception that what they are doing doesn't count as cyberbullying.
2) This similar approach has been tried before with the Pact. It's obvious by now that it has failed and didn't have the desired effect in the long term. Why repeat something similar? It won't work. Find a different approach.
=======================================
=======================================
T wrote to group on 10/07/10:
S...thanks for initiating this dialogue. I especially appreciate the diversity of people you included in this email:) I would love to see a stop to the targeting of organizations, members of organizations, and individual naming and name calling. I think we have so much to gain by being respectful of each other. That includes other people's opinions even if they are different from our own. I am sorry that B felt put down for his opinion. I don't think that was the intention of anyone but more that this is a forum to either want to be involved in this project or not. So B...please do stay involved in this discussion.. and I do want to thank you for bringing out the truth on Deafread to the facts of the letter writing to employers. That was very brave of you and honorable.
I would love to see guidelines enforced and some oversight to stop witch hunts and harassment which are all forms of bullying but taken to the extreme of riding the line of slander and libel. Vendettas to destroy people and organizations should be recognized and eliminated on aggregators. There is a difference between freedom of speech and terrorism. Simply not accepting those kinds of vlogs and blogs eliminate the chances an aggregator becoming infested by people that simply have agendas to harm others because they feel they have been slighted or owed apologies.
As a hearing parent, I am sadden at some of the blogs I read that literally make the D/d people and organizations look horrible, that spread untruths, and basically turn hearing parents who need information desperately away from D/d people, Deaf communities, and the Deaf blogosphere. Because of all the wonderful D/d people who have influenced our family's lives, I am grateful and hopeful through today's technology that other hearing families can make connections they need to be supported. Many times this happens through blogs and vlogs. And we all know that when our D/d children feel supported and accepted, the possibilities are endless for them.
I think all of you have made some very good suggestions and through this dialogue, I hope that we can all come to some kind of consensus on how is the best way to start awareness building of cyberbullying and how to improve the aggregator systems so that people feel safe again participating in today's cyberworld.
I am happy to participate in this...
T
=====================================
J wrote on 10/07/10
J2:
I'm glad u pointed that out.
What would be an effective approach to take?
I think we should consider various strategies before settling on one.
======================================
J3 wrote on 7 Oct 2010
At the risk of sounding too brash:
I would like to point out two things:
1) I haven't seen anyone who thinks or has said that cyberbullying is OK or is a cool thing to do. Everyone is against it. The problem is their own perception that what they are doing doesn't count as cyberbullying.
2) This similar approach has been tried before with the Pact. It's obvious by now that it has failed and didn't have the desired effect in the long term. Why repeat something similar? It won't work. Find a different approach.
===================================
“S” wrote on Oct 7, 2010:
Thank you all for joining this important dialogue. Everyone’s input is respected, valued and appreciated. B, if by saying you don’t want to participate, then I can certainly remove you from this list. I was hoping that although you wish to let it go, you would want to be a part of the discussion. If not, just let me know, thank you.
The points J3, M, and K have made are valid. There will always be a “R” or a “S3”. It’s what we choose to do with such comments or cyber-attacks/bullying that is important. From my view, I see a pattern where this issue surfaces almost annually. The educating never stops. Like racism, it rears its ugly head from time to time. Take for example when Obama was elected President, folks thought racism was finally going to end. We know from media publications, racist remarks by the infamous Tea Party about Obama, that this is not true. However, what we do see growing, is a stronger force of people united taking a stand each time it comes up. That is what this is about. Each time it comes up, we grow in numbers to take a stronger stand against cyber attacks and bullying. This doesn’t just mean what happens on the blogs or vlogs, and no matter what culture you belong to, it’s clear bullying attacks when behind scenes where the bullying happens with people sending email threats, calling employers to “squeal” on a person, many of you have experienced this yourselves. This is not acceptable.
P, I appreciate your offer to help. One idea I was toying with, but I don’t have the means to put it together, was to have this be an “infomercial” of the different folks here either defining what it means, or signing stop, or a written quote flashed on the screen – to make it all under 4 mins of course. Basically to make it so that it is “not cool” to attack or bully, so that it becomes a popular thing way to think. That’s what commercials do, shape the way the public should think about an issue or an item. Hope this makes sense. “Next year” we may have a different idea when it comes up again. Like I said, educating folks is an on-going process, it never ends, nor should we ignore it either. I think what I have seen is different folks speaking up on blogs and vlogs. Which is a good thing and needs to continue. But all of us from different backgrounds, together sharing and supporting one message, no.
Thanks to those of you who are considering working on this collectively. May the dialogue continue.....
===============================
J5 wrote on 07 Oct 2010
I pledge that I will start being diplomatic and start having reasonable dialogue with everyone including X, Y, etc.
We all need to stop spinning and work towards appropriated solution to the issues.
But will S3 go along with that? Or is his fixation about M, XX, Y, DBC, Deafhood is too deep to change for the better?
B, I apologize for my insensitive attitude that I demonstrated to you on your blog two years ago and hope you will forgive me and whenever we meet anywhere in the country, I would like to shake hands to show my secure desire to be friends with you.
together all on the same "page".
========================================
A known deaf person personally invited me and numerous other well known deaf people in the community to contribute in a private email group discussion on cyberbullying. All names have been changed using initials only. Some initials do not reflect the same first letter of any names (e.g. first name or last name). Some initials do correspond with either a first or last name. Other initials I have purposedly mixed them up. Some style of writings were slightly modified to avoid detection. Signature lines were deleted to avoid identifying who said what. The purpose here is not about the names or who was doing the discussing. The purpose is to show what went on during those email discussions. This email copy represent about 1/3th of the discussions that went on. It's a long piece of email discussion that I cobbled together for your viewing information.
Again, this is not about names.
This is about a discussion on cyberbullying that went on in a group email discussion. I plan to release more of these email discussions at a later time. For what it was worth the discussion eventually broke down with accusations cropping up and misunderstandings. Some opted out early into the discussion. This is a long email copy with the opportunity to learn what was discussed by various deaf/hh individuals.
Enjoy.
Note: Two double line breaks signifies a new thread. A single double line break separates comments.
===============================
On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 7:28 PM, “S”wrote:
Greetings all,
Lately the subject of cyber attacks and bullying has come up on Deafread and Aslrocks. As you know, its a subject I feel real strongly about and one that I have ZERO tolerance.
Was thinking, since many of you likewise feel the same way, the only way to end this cycle is by taking a stand to say "stop". Such bullying tactics have lead to many individuals being verbally attacked or trashed on blogs and vlogs. Employers have been contacted, families have been hurt, and self-esteem has been destroyed. Fear gives in, and paranoia sets, to the point some don't even blog or vlog anymore. Ridiculous to see oppressive actions on our own community. Its one thing to disagree with one another, its an entirely other thing to set out on a witchhunt. We could achieve far more working together in harmony, in unity, in the best interest of our future generations of Deaf babies and children.
Hence, this message is a simple request. Many of you are aware, and participated in an article I wrote about Zero Tolerance on Racism, which included A*dism.
I would like to do something similar, and get a quote from you about zero tolerance for cyber-bullying attacks, witchhunts, etc.
If you are real serious about seeing such attacks end, then I hope you are willing to show it by participating. By showing quotes from a diverse wide-variety of folks with different backgrounds, my goal is to show the Community that no matter who we are, no matter what we do, no matter that we may strongly disagree on issues, and/or even actually agree on an issue (here's hoping :) for that matter, our discourses, even heated discussions can be healthy, but cyberbullying is not. I think it behooves us to be responsible to ensure such does not continue to happen and such is why, we need to demonstrate this ourselves -- not separately, but together all on the same "page".
That's the gist of it. I look up to you all as leaders in your own right, the passion you bring to shed more light on various issues to help educate each other. This unified effort is to combat one thing, put an end to cyberbullying.
I hope you agree to send me your thoughts by way of a quote. If you think someone else should be added to join this effort, by all means, include them. The more who do join, the less the divide is amongst us.
I would like to post all of our quotes in one article, perhaps as a guest blogger on one of your sites. Would be neat if someone could also asl the piece once its done. The beauty of doing this is to ensure everyone understands one thing we can all agree on: Zero tolerance for cyber attacks and bullying. Such message can do well to actually strengthen our Deaf Community's ties. Who knows? We don't know until we try.
============================
“L” wrote, 10/06/10
There's actually a LOT of history to this effort already. You probably know most of it, but for those who don't, I'd start with: Deaf-Hope The Pact (link).
J, do you have more stories about the already-checkered history of this effort? I remember that X was involved, as was R.
I'm not even sure what ZERO tolerance means, after the fact...
- L.
=======================
“P” wrote, 10/06/10:
Sounds like a good plan. Article for which reading literature q so I'd know who the audience will be.
==========================================
“B” wrote, 10/06/10:
My question is simply this: when does it end? I mean, we've come to a full circle in little more than a year. People will do what they want to do -- no amount of leaders can come together and change that.
It is kind of funny how we are asking them to learn something from this. I think we should ask this of ourselves: what are we learning from this experience??
I think if we keep responding to this, it will only fuel the fire.
As an individual among those who are being attacked (cyberbullied, if you may), I think it is best to let it go.
Someone has to or the cycle will never end.
======================================
J wrote, 10/06/10:
B,
Good food for thought.
Which strategy do we pay the higher price? Which strategy do we risk more?
We know for a fact that in recent weeks, gay youth suicides are on the rise because of cyber-bullying. There is now a call to action within the LGBT community.
Do we remain silent with hopes of not adding fuel to the fire?
Or do we risk seeing Deaf people commit suicide because of hatred/ridicule they experience online?
J.
=================================
=================================
S wrote, 10/06/10:
Thank you P! Audience are ppl who read blogs and vlogs. Could be in writing, could be as a video. Whole point is to show a variety of us. L, actually, it started long before the Deafhope pact.
J, and other Deaf womyn and myself posted abt putting an end to cyberbullying on Deaf-CommUNITY blogsite abt 4 or 5yrs ago. Zero tolerance meaning we all take a stand together to state we as individuals do not accept cyber-attacks and bullying. Real simple actually, and in our own words, short n sweet.
S.
===================================
“S” wrote, 10/06/10:
Excellent point J!
===============================
“J” wrote, 7 Oct 2010:
B,
Good food for thought.
Which strategy do we pay the higher price? Which strategy do we risk more?
We know for a fact that in recent weeks, gay youth suicides are on the rise because of cyber-bullying. There is now a call to action within the LGBT community.
Do we remain silent with hopes of not adding fuel to the fire?
Or do we risk seeing Deaf people commit suicide because of hatred/ridicule they experience online?
-J
========================================
“B” wrote, 6 Oct 2010:
P,
My question is simply this: when does it end? I mean, we've come to a full circle in little more than a year. People will do what they want to do -- no amount of leaders can come together and change that.
It is kind of funny how we are asking them to learn something from this. I think we should ask this of ourselves: what are we learning from this experience??
I think if we keep responding to this, it will only fuel the fire.
As an individual among those who are being attacked (cyberbullied, if you may), I think it is best to let it go.
Someone has to or the cycle will never end.
============================================
“P” wrote, Oct 6, 2010:
Sounds like a good plan. Article for which reading literature q so I'd know who the audience will be.
====================================
====================================
“L” wrote to “S“, 10/06/10”
Actually, I'm feeling more in line with what B has been saying...
This is structural. It's bigger than us taking a stand. It's a difference between how we each see the force of our own actions against others versus the force of others' actions against us.
It seems related to the whole thing of oppressors not being able to see that they are oppressing, and the oppressed seeing every twitch, with us each having way too much of both oppressor and oppressed inside. Both blinding and blinded...
What I'm seeing out there is, "Yeah? Well, your guy did THIS!" "Oh yeah? Well your other guy did something worse to us!" "Oh yeah?..."
Breaking the cycle means somebody has to be ABLE to say stop and actually HAVE it stop.
At this point, I'm not very hopeful...
- L
==================================
==================================
“S” wrote to “L” 10/06/10
In isolation perhaps diff ppl have said stop. But all of us together in one place taking a stand? Nope.
This would be one helluva strong message to our Community. Every effort counts in my opinion. Won't know til we try, eh?
=================================
“L” wrote on 6 Oct 2010 21:12:05 -0700
Actually, I'm feeling more in line with what B has been saying...
This is structural. It's bigger than us taking a stand. It's a difference between how we each see the force of our own actions against others versus the force of others' actions against us.
It seems related to the whole thing of oppressors not being able to see that they are oppressing, and the oppressed seeing every twitch, with us each having way too much of both oppressor and oppressed inside. Both blinding and blinded...
What I'm seeing out there is, "Yeah? Well, your guy did THIS!" "Oh yeah? Well your other guy did something worse to us!" "Oh yeah?..."
Breaking the cycle means somebody has to be ABLE to say stop and actually HAVE it stop.
At this point, I'm not very hopeful...
- L
===================================
===================================
“B” wrote to “S” on 10/06/10”
Then, this is your fight.
All I ask from you is to respect my decision to let this go.
Thank you and good luck.
====================================
“S” wrote on Oct 6, 2010:
In isolation perhaps diff ppl have said stop. But all of us together in one place taking a stand? Nope.
This would be one helluva strong message to our Community. Every effort counts in my opinion. Won't know til we try, eh?
=================================
=================================
“L” wrote to “B” and group, 10/06/10”
“S”
It TAKES all of us to agree, but there IS no "all of us" to agree.
There is a really fundamental dynamic going on here that we're trying to sort of wish away.
B, can you explain it any better?
- L
====================================
“L” wrote on 6 Oct 2010
Actually, I'm feeling more in line with what B has been saying...
This is structural. It's bigger than us taking a stand. It's a difference between how we each see the force of our own actions against others versus the force of others' actions against us.
It seems related to the whole thing of oppressors not being able to see that they are oppressing, and the oppressed seeing every twitch, with us each having way too much of both oppressor and oppressed inside. Both blinding and blinded...
What I'm seeing out there is, "Yeah? Well, your guy did THIS!" "Oh yeah? Well your other guy did something worse to us!" "Oh yeah?..."
Breaking the cycle means somebody has to be ABLE to say stop and actually HAVE it stop.
At this point, I'm not very hopeful...
- L
=======================
“S” wrote on Oct 6, 2010
Excellent point J!
=================
“J” wrote to “B” on im Brune" 7 Oct 2010:
B,
Good food for thought.
Which strategy do we pay the higher price? Which strategy do we risk more?
We know for a fact that in recent weeks, gay youth suicides are on the rise because of cyber-bullying. There is now a call to action within the LGBT community.
Do we remain silent with hopes of not adding fuel to the fire?
Or do we risk seeing Deaf people commit suicide because of hatred/ridicule they experience online?
J
===================================
===================================
“J3” wrote to group on 10/06/10
Thanks S for including us. I would like to take some time to read this and all responses. This is not easy one after what we have gone through. Who wants to go through this again? It may be easier just to stay away from cyberworld. But heck no, you are right, we can do better than this.
So which is which... ummm...
===================================
===================================
“P” wrote to group on 10/07/10:
Greetings S et al:
I want to thank you for initiating this collective response. Internet defamation, attacks, harassment via promoting falsehoods and inciting others to attack folks via their workplace, affiliations, and government agencies unjustly is definitely not cool when do you need a quote by?
Also - an ASL and/or international version is very important so if any way i can assist - holler. I understand the temptation to let it drop, to be a turtle. This does not make things go away - it just smolders or emboldens. Too many good voices have gone silent - too many good souls have been hurt. MLK Jr said A man dies when he does not take a stand for that which is just, right and good.
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====================================
“J4” wrote to “J” and “P” 10/07/10:
J- I agree with you. S, thank you for starting this important dialogue again
We have nothing to lose by taking a stand together. DeafHope did have a public petition created by a Deaf lawyer to stop Cyberbully together as a community during 2008 at our Tea Party. X was the first to sign it along with Y. Both S and I signed it as well. We did experience backlash for starting the petition but it created a much needed dialogue. It was a proactive statement by us as a community. It was worth it.
Now I think it is time for us to step it up with our personal statements before we lose a Deaf person to suicide. Sure we will experience backlash but we are all in it together to support one another. Prevention instead of reaction goes a long way.
-”J4”
===================================
===================================
“B” wrote to group on 10/07/10:
S and everyone else,
Since my last email asking that my wish to let it go to be respected, I got three emails disagreeing with me, but with serious implications. First, I do not appreciate the emails by J2 and J, I felt they were truly disrespectful to my decision by implying that I may have little or no regard for other Deaf people's lives. It is very insulting.
Consider this perspective: I am respecting the lives of other individuals by not thrusting my opinions of their actions uninvited. It begs the question as to why exactly anyone would want to be travel agents for guilt trips on those who have no desire for these travel packages?
By refusing to respect my decision to let it go rather than to fight it with implications that I contribute to the suicides within our community can and should be construed as an early form of cyberbullying.
As for P, once again I felt disrespected. Rather than agreeing to disagree, my position is now considered "turtle" (which I assume is a thinly veiled analogy to cowardice) and throwing in a quote, by Dr. King no less, saying I'm less of a man than those who wish to fight this? Another example of cyberbullying in its early form.
Sometimes it takes a bigger person to take the brunt of it and let it go than to look for retaliation and being self-righteous.
If you feel it is necessary to bash my decision to let it go, then, please remove my name from this email list.
Once more, thank you and good luck!
-B
===================================================
“S” wrote to group on 10/07/10
I would much prefer to see this request done in each site...DR, DVTV, and ASLrocks before final quotes are posted on a blog and done in a video format with ASL and captions. I would feel better knowing that this is an effort to reach out to all and that no one is excluded. Perhaps do request via other deaf forums as well.
Also a message to start fresh, meaning - attempts to rehash is not productive. However, there will be some who might demand apology before being able to start fresh. So we do need to keep that in mind....
I do see why B thinks it might not work, because there will be ppl who feel that they have not reached some sort of closure....
Just sharing my perception...
-S
======================================
======================================
“S” wrote to group on 10/07/10
Also....i am of the opinion that with these request we probably should refrain from using any key words that have cause division.
======================================
======================================
“M” wrote to group on 10/07/10:
B,
Your mentioning "implications" of cyberbullying raises the fundamental questions I'm having about this call to action and reflections.
I believe this call by S although noble is too superficial for what is truly needing in this community both in and out of Deaf v/ blogosphere.
What is needing I personally believe as someone who's deeply entrenched in Deaf Cultural and ASL Studies dealing for so many years with all kinds of people both Deaf and hearing is recognizing and respecting the Deaf-centered definitions, social rules, historical ways, and positively potential ways of dealing with crisis. They exist and do work but have been badly battered in the "open" via DeafRead, and yes other "open" Deaf discussion arenas.
Can we begin to discuss cultural as well as personal interpretations of what consists of an insult? What is considered impolite? What is considered insignificant to some but a great insult to one or few? What is considered respect to us or is the same thing considered
hypocrisy to others?
Is pointing out untruths/lies a necessary "insult" or embarrassement that must be avoided? Does it have to do with confidence that comes with a healthy cultural connections with people around us or does it has to do with belittling others or even another culture/language?
Etc etc.
I need to stop now but I know this could become something good. However just quoting and shouting out "stop cyberbullying" won't work. Cuz we seem to have different ideas and ways to deal with it an we haven't even have a collective agreement to cherish and respect our Deafhood, history, Deaf-centered work and fight against a*dism. Etc etc.
========================================
“B” wrote on Oct 7, 2010:
S and everyone else,
Since my last email asking that my wish to let it go to be respected, I got three emails disagreeing with me, but with serious implications. First, I do not appreciate the emails by J2 and J, I felt they were truly disrespectful to my decision by implying that I may have little or no regard for other Deaf people's lives.
It is very insulting.
Consider this perspective: I am respecting the lives of other individuals by not thrusting my opinions of their actions uninvited. It begs the question as to why exactly anyone would want to be travel agents for guilt trips on those who have no desire for these
travel packages?
By refusing to respect my decision to let it go rather than to fight it with implications that I contribute to the suicides within our community can and should be construed as an early form of cyberbullying.
As for P’s email, once again I felt disrespected. Rather than agreeing to disagree, my position is now considered "turtle" (which I assume is a thinly veiled analogy to cowardice) and throwing in a quote, by Dr. King no less, saying I'm less of a man than those who wish to fight this? Another example of cyberbullying in its early form.
Sometimes it takes a bigger person to take the brunt of it and let it go than to look for retaliation and being self-righteous.
If you feel it is necessary to bash my decision to let it go, then, please remove my name from this email list.
Once more, thank you and good luck!
-B
======================================
======================================
M2 wrote to “S” on 10/07/10:
As a reader of mostly bloggers with an occasional trip to vlogging sites that were references in the blogs, I have my thoughts that are really irrevelant to this discussion because I do not have a clue as to what happened in 2008. I was not there.
So, I do not know if what I saw constitute "cyberbulling." I think people do it to themselves. I read cyberbulling blogs and do not respond because it is so off base and borders on ludicrous. I can choose to respond and engage in battling words, or I can choose to ignore and be at peace with my decision not to respond. That's where I can understand B's thoughts.
I think we all have to assume responsibility for responding and for engaging in potentially cyberbulling activities when we choose to.
I also think we all ought to be more ready to explain our points of view that could be confusing to others. If I write words that I eventually realize were hurtful, I would apologize quickly.
I don't think our problem is cyberbulling per se, I think the problem is that bloggers/vloggers are not able to look at themselves and acknowledge whether they have had been cyberbullying or wrote harsh words or were confusing readers or what have you.
That happens on both ends of the spectrum. There's no respect for different points of view, and there's no respect for experiences that are so different from the bloggers or vloggers. Does that constitute cyberbullying? I don't know.
It could be ignorance and a hint of arrogance....they think they know better what we need to do.
I think it is a world that invites both awe and repulsion. What do we do about that? I don't know the answer either..
The bloggers and vloggers seem to have ALL of the answers; honestly, I marvel at their knowing everything in life. I wish I knew as much as they do.
M2
========================================
“S” wrote on Oct 7, 2010:
I would much prefer to see this request done in each site...DR, DVTV, and ASLrocks before final quotes are posted on a blog and done in a video format with ASL and captions. I would feel better knowing that this is an effort to reach out to all and that no one is excluded. Perhaps do request via other deaf forums as well.
Also a message to start fresh, meaning - attempts to rehash is not productive. However, there will be some who might demand apology before being able to start fresh. So we do need to keep that in mind....
I do see why B thinks it might not work, because there will be ppl who feel that they have not reached some sort of closure....
Just sharing my perception...
=======================================
=======================================
“L” respond to “S” and group on 10/07/10:
Do you think quotes will stop S2? If S2 continues, what are we supposed to do? It only takes one backsliding cyberbully for the whole online community to be thrust back into the same old dynamic!
Can ANY of you get S2 to stop?
I felt that the most recent exposure of what S2's capable of doing was informative to a couple of those who HAD felt that S2 was the "good guy" here, and now realize that he's a BIG part of the problem and needs no longer to have this behavior supported...
J5 has realized that he had crossed the line by calling people names, and has taken steps so that he does not react publicly to taunting such as that S2 did AGAIN yesterday, but that will not be enough going forward if folks like S2 are given a free pass by their friends.
Part of the problem is, as B noted, that cyberbullying is easier to see done TO you than it is to see when YOU are starting to cross over the line, so there needs to be feedback from trusted friends in the backchannel and the ability to actually take HEED of this feedback whenever one of us has crossed the line.
But that takes the "society" part of the "open society". An "open society" that overemphasizes the "open" at the expense of "society" becomes exactly the sort of "Lord of the Flies" situation we have right now. CAN S2's friends tell him when he's crossed the line, and have S2 reign himself in?
- L
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“X” wrote to group on 10/07/10
The idealist in me
I have always been against cyberbullying and never have condoned or encouraged it. It pains me greatly to see when others respond in a destructive and mean manner. Yes, I would love to see a world where people always treat each other with respect and do not engage in destructive behavior towards others. It would be great if this coordinated response caused many people to see the light and modify their behavior patterns.
The realist in me
Unfortunately, bad behavior always been seen on Internet since the early days. I'm not trying to make an excuse here: it's a simple fact that it's seen everywhere on the Internet across the entire spectrum of users. There are many reasons for this which I won't go into here. It's sufficient to say that people behave very differently on the Internet than in real life. With Internet easier than ever for anyone to access, there are more people present who are not well versed in how to handle negative messages/events.
Even if everyone here today agrees to go ahead with a coordinated response against cyberbullying and other destructive behavior on the Internet, we'll only see a short term effect before it disintegrates back to the old ways. Even if everyone change their behavior tomorrow, it will be inevitable that more people will drawn in and these new people are not attuned to the agreed upon changes. The cycle will repeat itself. In this case, we aren't trying to manage a small group of people, but dealing with a larger population, who don't always follow the same rules, don't know each other personally, don't always get along, respond in many different ways and have their own prejudices and agendas.
The major problems that I have noticed: Not everyone sees cyberbullying in the same light and many times it's a matter of perspective. I've seen too many cases where people who have proclaimed they are against cyberbullying but selectively scold cyberbullies while ignoring/permitting others on their side who engage in the very same behavior.
I think a better approach would be not to aim to eradicate cyberbullying behavior, but to develop effective techniques to deal with these types of behavior on the Internet. Cyberbullying will always exist on the Internet but there are steps to minimize it.
I've tried to model this myself over the years, when I've been attacked numerous times:
1. Always respond in a polite manner, without resorting to degrading comments.
2. Know how to choose the right battles to fight and which ones to avoid.
3. Know when it's best not to respond (most of time, the aim of cyberbullying is to trigger a reaction and while it's very difficult for the person on the receiving end, sometimes the best thing to do is to ignore and not to respond at all.)
Accept the fact that everyone has had different kind of upbringing, were exposed to different things and learned to handle things in different ways. Some of these things they learned or were exposed to may have been positive or were negative. Human nature varies greatly among people. Lastly, it's virtually impossible to change other people's behavior patterns, if they are not open to it.
If there is one thing that I don't like, it's fighting a losing battle. I would prefer to devote my time and energy towards an approach that acknowledges real world factors and will pay off in the end. I may be a bit too pragmatic for my own good but if I see something that will be effective for the long term, I'm all for it.
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B wrote on 10/07/10
Be prepared for an heart attack everyone...
I actually agree with M here.
Well said.
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M wrote on Oct 7, 2010:
B,
Your mentioning "implications" of cyberbullying raises the fundamental
questions I'm having about this call to action and reflections.
I believe this call by S although noble is too superficial for what
is truly needing in this community both in and out of Deaf v/
blogosphere.
What is needing I personally believe as someone who's deeply
entrenched in Deaf Cultural and ASL Studies dealing for so many years
with all kinds of people both Deaf and hearing is recognizing and
respecting the Deaf-centered definitions, social rules, historical
ways, and positively potential ways of dealing with crisis. They exist
and do work but have been badly battered in the "open" via DeafRead,
and yes other "open" Deaf discussion arenas.
Can we begin to discuss cultural as well as personal interpretations
of what consists of an insult? What is considered impolite? What is
considered insignificant to some but a great insult to one or few?
What is considered respect to us or is the same thing considered
hypocrisy to others?
Is pointing out untruths/lies a necessary "insult" or embarrassement
that must be avoided? Does it have to do with confidence that comes
with a healthy cultural connections with people around us or does it
has to do with belittling others or even another culture/language?
Etc etc.
I need to stop now but I know this could become something good.
However just quoting and shouting out "stop cyberbullying" won't work.
Cuz we seem to have different ideas and ways to deal with it an we
haven't even have a collective agreement to cherish and respect our
Deafhood, history, Deaf-centered work and fight against a*dism. Etc etc.
entrenched in Deaf Cultural and ASL Studies dealing for so many years with all kinds of people both Deaf and hearing is recognizing and respecting the Deaf-centered definitions, social rules, historical ways, and positively potential ways of dealing with crisis. They exist and do work but have been badly battered in the "open" via DeafRead, and yes other "open" Deaf discussion arenas.
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J4 wrote to B on 10/07/10:
Hi B. J and I were throwing in our thoughts. I was just having a dialogue. Can u show what I said that was disrespectful to you? This well help me see what I said (unintentionally) to offend you.
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J6 wrote to group on 10/07/10:
I pledge that I will start being diplomatic and start having reasonable dialogue with everyone including K, S, etc. We all need to stop spinning and work towards appropriated solution to the issues.
But will S2 go along with that? Or is his fixation about M, D, B2, DBC, Deafhood is too deep to change for the better?
B, I apologize for my insensitive attitude that I demonstrated to you on your blog two years ago and hope you will forgive me and whenever we meet anywhere in the country, I would like to shake hands to show my secure desire to be friends with you.
J6
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“S” wrote to J6, B, P, K and to group on 10/07/10:
Thank you all for joining this important dialogue. Everyone’s input is respected, valued and appreciated. B, if by saying you don’t want to participate, then I can certainly remove you from this list. I was hoping that although you wish to let it go, you would want to be a part of the discussion. If not, just let me know, thank you.
The points J, M, and K have made are valid. There will always be a “R” or a “S2”. It’s what we choose to do with such comments or cyber-attacks/bullying that is important. From my view, I see a pattern where this issue surfaces almost annually. The educating never stops. Like racism, it rears its ugly head from time to time. Take for example when Obama was elected President, folks thought racism was finally going to end. We know from media publications, racist remarks by the infamous Tea Party about Obama, that this is not true. However, what we do see growing, is a stronger force of people united taking a stand each time it comes up. That is what this is about. Each time it comes up, we grow in numbers to take a stronger stand against cyber attacks and bullying. This doesn’t just mean what happens on the blogs or vlogs, and no matter what culture you belong to, it’s clear bullying attacks when behind scenes where the bullying happens with people sending email threats, calling employers to “squeal” on a person, many of you have experienced this yourselves. This is not acceptable.
P, I appreciate your offer to help. One idea I was toying with, but I don’t have the means to put it together, was to have this be an “infomercial” of the different folks here either defining what it means, or signing stop, or a written quote flashed on the screen – to make it all under 4 mins of course. Basically to make it so that it is “not cool” to attack or bully, so that it becomes a popular thing way to think. That’s what commercials do, shape the way the public should think about an issue or an item. Hope this makes sense. “Next year” we may have a different idea when it comes up again. Like I said, educating folks is an on-going process, it never ends, nor should we ignore it either. I think what I have seen is different folks speaking up on blogs and vlogs. Which is a good thing and needs to continue. But all of us from different backgrounds, together sharing and supporting one message, no.
Thanks to those of you who are considering working on this collectively. May the dialogue continue.....
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“S3” wrote on 10/07/10:
I like the idea of infomercials. keep things simple....people remember simple messages.
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P wrote on 10/07/10
Hi all
Ah my heart is still ticking B - no heart attack. Just an open heart and marveling at this dialogue. Thank you all. I do want to take a minute to apologize to you B if my quoting MLK made you feel I was targeting you. My intent was very far removed from that. This was my intent and desire:
MLK saying... A man dies when he does not stand for that which is right just and good. "Man" was the dominant language of the time. What he meant was a HUMAN - we as a PEOPLE - when we look the other way we cause more harm than good. It is not a question of manhood - or cowardice as MLK framed it
It is a question of doing right and a plea for our souls so there be no
death of the spirit. Too many good folks have been silent. I fully respect what ever choice you choose B. I am speaking to us as a commUNITY and I understand that folks are at different places and stages and have different needs at this time. I’m sorry you felt I was targeting you.
Feel free to disagree with the position without accusing me of something I did not do. I just stated my values and principles - I do accept that many folks hold different values and truths and opinions.
Please know that if I wanna say something directly to you - I will totally honor your spirit and say it directly. I wont play games - there are no veils coming from these quarters.
re: turtle - I was responding more to J3's comment: " It may be easier
just to stay away from cyberworld." But then he quickly followed it with: "But heck no, you are right, we can do better than this."
My purpose of mentioning the turtle - is because it is a mighty temptation for me too.
M wrote:
“Can we begin to discuss cultural as well as personal interpretations of what consists of an insult? What is considered impolite? What is considered insignificant to some but a great insult to one or few? What is considered respect to us or is the same thing considered hypocrisy to others?
Is pointing out untruths/lies a necessary "insult" or embarrassement that must be avoided? Does it have to do with confidence that comes with a healthy cultural connections with people around us or does it has to do with belittling others or even another culture/language?
These are very important questions and maybe the first step in this dialogue is to have folks within this listing share what they see to be the answers to these questions. This may lay the good groundwork for something much better to come forth.
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J2 wrote on 10/07/10
At the risk of sounding too brash:
I would like to point out two things:
1) I haven't seen anyone who thinks or has said that cyberbullying is OK or is a cool thing to do. Everyone is against it. The problem is their own perception that what they are doing doesn't count as cyberbullying.
2) This similar approach has been tried before with the Pact. It's obvious by now that it has failed and didn't have the desired effect in the long term. Why repeat something similar? It won't work. Find a different approach.
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T wrote to group on 10/07/10:
S...thanks for initiating this dialogue. I especially appreciate the diversity of people you included in this email:) I would love to see a stop to the targeting of organizations, members of organizations, and individual naming and name calling. I think we have so much to gain by being respectful of each other. That includes other people's opinions even if they are different from our own. I am sorry that B felt put down for his opinion. I don't think that was the intention of anyone but more that this is a forum to either want to be involved in this project or not. So B...please do stay involved in this discussion.. and I do want to thank you for bringing out the truth on Deafread to the facts of the letter writing to employers. That was very brave of you and honorable.
I would love to see guidelines enforced and some oversight to stop witch hunts and harassment which are all forms of bullying but taken to the extreme of riding the line of slander and libel. Vendettas to destroy people and organizations should be recognized and eliminated on aggregators. There is a difference between freedom of speech and terrorism. Simply not accepting those kinds of vlogs and blogs eliminate the chances an aggregator becoming infested by people that simply have agendas to harm others because they feel they have been slighted or owed apologies.
As a hearing parent, I am sadden at some of the blogs I read that literally make the D/d people and organizations look horrible, that spread untruths, and basically turn hearing parents who need information desperately away from D/d people, Deaf communities, and the Deaf blogosphere. Because of all the wonderful D/d people who have influenced our family's lives, I am grateful and hopeful through today's technology that other hearing families can make connections they need to be supported. Many times this happens through blogs and vlogs. And we all know that when our D/d children feel supported and accepted, the possibilities are endless for them.
I think all of you have made some very good suggestions and through this dialogue, I hope that we can all come to some kind of consensus on how is the best way to start awareness building of cyberbullying and how to improve the aggregator systems so that people feel safe again participating in today's cyberworld.
I am happy to participate in this...
T
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J wrote on 10/07/10
J2:
I'm glad u pointed that out.
What would be an effective approach to take?
I think we should consider various strategies before settling on one.
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J3 wrote on 7 Oct 2010
At the risk of sounding too brash:
I would like to point out two things:
1) I haven't seen anyone who thinks or has said that cyberbullying is OK or is a cool thing to do. Everyone is against it. The problem is their own perception that what they are doing doesn't count as cyberbullying.
2) This similar approach has been tried before with the Pact. It's obvious by now that it has failed and didn't have the desired effect in the long term. Why repeat something similar? It won't work. Find a different approach.
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“S” wrote on Oct 7, 2010:
Thank you all for joining this important dialogue. Everyone’s input is respected, valued and appreciated. B, if by saying you don’t want to participate, then I can certainly remove you from this list. I was hoping that although you wish to let it go, you would want to be a part of the discussion. If not, just let me know, thank you.
The points J3, M, and K have made are valid. There will always be a “R” or a “S3”. It’s what we choose to do with such comments or cyber-attacks/bullying that is important. From my view, I see a pattern where this issue surfaces almost annually. The educating never stops. Like racism, it rears its ugly head from time to time. Take for example when Obama was elected President, folks thought racism was finally going to end. We know from media publications, racist remarks by the infamous Tea Party about Obama, that this is not true. However, what we do see growing, is a stronger force of people united taking a stand each time it comes up. That is what this is about. Each time it comes up, we grow in numbers to take a stronger stand against cyber attacks and bullying. This doesn’t just mean what happens on the blogs or vlogs, and no matter what culture you belong to, it’s clear bullying attacks when behind scenes where the bullying happens with people sending email threats, calling employers to “squeal” on a person, many of you have experienced this yourselves. This is not acceptable.
P, I appreciate your offer to help. One idea I was toying with, but I don’t have the means to put it together, was to have this be an “infomercial” of the different folks here either defining what it means, or signing stop, or a written quote flashed on the screen – to make it all under 4 mins of course. Basically to make it so that it is “not cool” to attack or bully, so that it becomes a popular thing way to think. That’s what commercials do, shape the way the public should think about an issue or an item. Hope this makes sense. “Next year” we may have a different idea when it comes up again. Like I said, educating folks is an on-going process, it never ends, nor should we ignore it either. I think what I have seen is different folks speaking up on blogs and vlogs. Which is a good thing and needs to continue. But all of us from different backgrounds, together sharing and supporting one message, no.
Thanks to those of you who are considering working on this collectively. May the dialogue continue.....
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J5 wrote on 07 Oct 2010
I pledge that I will start being diplomatic and start having reasonable dialogue with everyone including X, Y, etc.
We all need to stop spinning and work towards appropriated solution to the issues.
But will S3 go along with that? Or is his fixation about M, XX, Y, DBC, Deafhood is too deep to change for the better?
B, I apologize for my insensitive attitude that I demonstrated to you on your blog two years ago and hope you will forgive me and whenever we meet anywhere in the country, I would like to shake hands to show my secure desire to be friends with you.
together all on the same "page".
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